Movies That Made Me Queer: Gabe Hicks

In the first of a new series where we ask guests, What Movie Made You Queer? Today Rowan is joined by creative producer, storyteller extraordinaire and all round deity, Gabe Hicks, AKA, @GabeJamesGames on Twitter. Find Us Online - Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod  - Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast - Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/  - Multitude: @MultitudeShows   Production - Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John - Editor: Julia Schifini - Executive Producer: Multitude - Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd   About The Show Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday. Transcript ROWAN: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best and worst of LGBTQ+ cinema, one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis, and welcome to one of our guest specials that we'll be releasing between our usual Queer Movie Club episodes. Today, we're joined by Gabe, who will be answering the question, "What movies made you queer?" I'm very excited to welcome creative producer and storyteller extraordinaire, Gabe Hicks, aka Gabe James Games. GABE: Hello! I'm happy to be here! I was talking to Rowan, I was like, "Yes, let me just talk about these things!" It's-- it's actually something that I have never really talked about, especially since more of my expression has been, like, more publicly recent, like this last year is when I really started openly sharing my identity and stuff. ROWAN: Amazing. I like that we're giving you the opportunity to do what I think a lot of people like to do, which is just talk excitedly about movies. I feel like it's a universal language. GABE: Absolutely. ROWAN: And I'm very glad to be part of it. So, this is going to be the first episode of this type of format that we're trying. GABE: Oh, my god. ROWAN: I know, very exciting. You are the debut. So, I would love to hear how many movies/sort of pieces of media/TV shows did you bring today for us? GABE: So, I brought four movies and then one piece of media. ROWAN: Amazing. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: Do you have an order? Do you-- Have you already planned out your ideal order for this or are you just gonna pick them out of a hat at random? GABE: I actually did plan in order. ROWAN: In which case, far from it. That sentence didn't make any sense. I was like... I was about to say -- GABE: Far be from it. ROWAN: -- far from it to be to me, to Gabe. GABE: Yup. ROWAN: AKA, what is your first choice, Gabe? GABE: Pirates of the Caribbean. ROWAN: Oh, okay. Well, if anyone has ever spoken to me in my entire life, they will know that I am a massive Elizabeth Swann apologist and also love to talk about -- GABE: Really? ROWAN: -- Pirates of the Caribbean. GABE: All right, that's fair. ROWAN: And I would love to hear your thoughts about it. And then obviously, cancel this podcast episode if we disagree on this very first movie so... GABE: Cool, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fine. ROWAN: You know, the friendship is hanging on this, Gabe. GABE: Good. Good. ROWAN: Please be-- be aware. GABE: The-- the appearance of Jack Sparrow to me was-- that was the moment when I was like, I don't know if I want to be with him or be him. Kind of column A, column B, like, why not both? Weird, bold, beautiful, strange, unapologetic, charming in the way that he was just weird, and just did it. And was surrounded by such a wild assortment of people. And then Calypso is one of the most, be like the actress who plays Calypso as well as the character. Some of the most beautiful people that I've really seen. So, the more characters they introduced–. And then-- then the later ones when spoiler alerts, you got, like, Barbosa's daughter. And just-- I was like, "Why is everyone so attractive?" I will say Orlando Bloom, like, I enjoyed him, but I can't separate him from Legolas. And Legolas was too much of a pretty boy for my taste, because it was-- it was, like, long flowing pity boy, I wanted like, weird, gritty, strange boy, which is why Jack Sparrow pretty much checked all the boxes. ROWAN: Yeah, well, in turn it wasn't really giving that. He was very sweet in his own way. It was really funny because I remember Pirates of the Caribbean was out at exactly the same time as Lord of the Rings. How do I know that? Because I -- GABE: Yup. ROWAN: -- fully remember having posters of both on my wall. And I did have posters of Orlando Bloom as both roles, which was really I think, just the last vestiges of my, like, supposed heterosexuality clinging to the walls of my bedroom. GABE: Yup, yup. ROWAN: I think that what you just said about I didn't know if I wanted to be– be them or, like, be with them? GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: What a mood. What a queer mood. I feel like that is something that most of us can relate to. This strange kind of like, there is something alluring about this and I'm not entirely sure. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: What? What element of this is working for me? GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: Were you like a pirate kid? Was that-- was that a thing that you're already obsessed with? Or was this kind of like a new-- new thing for you in those years? GABE: It was a new thing for me. And it became, like, a fixation. I was like, I want all of this. I wasn't a pirate kid until those movies came out. And then, I was wholeheartedly a pirate kid. I was like, sea shanties, sea monsters, and, like, the thing is, I couldn't swim. So, like, it was very interesting -- ROWAN: Amazing. GABE: -- that I was like all about, I think, but you know what, like, if I can't swim, maybe Jack would save me and if he didn't, maybe I deserved it. I don't know. But like, I would-- I would risk it. I would risk it for the biscuit. ROWAN: I just love-- Yeah, I was gonna ask, did you live near the sea? I was just imagining you on your own little boat and you're like, "Nope." GABE: Not at all. I lived in the woods, in the forest. And maybe that was part of why I loved it. I was terrified of boats. But like, I would, you know, if Jack Sparrow was like, "All right, Gabe. We're getting on a ship and we're sailing the sea." I'm like, "Say less. I-- wherever you need me. I will -- ROWAN: I am there. GABE: -- scrub the deck. I will fire the gun off swinging on a rope above the sea. And I might die but I'm gonna die happy. ROWAN: That's hilarious to me because obviously, I mean, I feel like it's not really a spoiler to say Jack Sparrow in those movies is not the most moral of peoples. GABE: No! ROWAN: So, I just love the idea that you're just like, "Whatever you say, Jack, I'm there." GABE: Yup. ROWAN: Like, it doesn't even. And he's like, "Oh, I don't have to convince?" You're like, "Jack, listen, I'm already on the boat. Like, it's fine." GABE: Yeah. You didn't, Jack-- you. I'm here. I get-- I'm basically committed to whatever happens next. ROWAN: Have you been to the new revamped Pirates of the Caribbean ride? GABE: Yes, I have. ROWAN: Have Jack in it. GABE: I was at Disney World in October, and, like, Pirates of the Caribbean was one of the things I explicitly wanted to do, and the animatronics are so good. It's actually very startling. ROWAN: It's-- it's really funny because obviously, you've got all of the old animatronics, which are, let's just say not as good. GABE: Yup. ROWAN: And it's-- and then just as one weirdly human, like, figure in them. GABE: Yup. ROWAN: Which I greatly enjoyed. So I, as I mentioned, Elizabeth Swann, I'm an Elizabeth Swann apologist. I basically just think that those movies, everyone I understand the allure of Jack Sparrow, and maybe it is the lesbian in me, Gabe. I'm not-- I-- I'm not lying, I might be biased, but I feel like, there's obviously he's such a memorable character. GABE: You're not biased, you're lesbiased. ROWAN: Yeah, lesbiased, that oh, you know what, I'm using that now. Never-- never will the word bias cross my lips anymore. I will be writing it in emails. I will explain nothing. GABE: Lesbias. Oh shit, that's funny. Damn. ROWAN: But they-- they you-- honestly, add comedian to the list of stuff you do, Gabe. GABE: Thank you. ROWAN: Because you honestly do everything and it was about time that you added another string to the– to the bow. GABE: That's true. ROWAN: Which I assume you can also shoot? You seem like the kind of person who would know how to shoot arrows. GABE: I have two bows and three crossbows. ROWAN: Of course you do. Of course you do. Yeah, that was not even a question. But yeah, Elizabeth Swann. The movies are just about her. The whole, like, Will especially. I love Will Turner. Like, he's a lovely character and everything, but all he does is get rescued by Jack or Elizabeth. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: And then just go around going, "Elizabeth. Elizabeth." GABE: That's true. ROWAN: Like, the entire time. That's his entire role. And like, I love that for him. GABE: Okay, so I'm-- I'm gonna say, I feel like the reason that I don't like Elizabeth, is because they intentionally made her an ass, and they didn't have to. They could have made her way more of an endearing figure that was just a powerful woman. And they instead tried to-- it's like, they were, like, trying to pretend that they were committing to a damsel in distress. But then, it's like, but no, she's like, powerful, but I'm like, why did you make her powerful, and then, like, snarky. ROWAN: Okay, but here's the thing, Gabe. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: Have you? Have you heard of the concept of a mean lesbian? GABE: No, because lesbians aren't usually mean to me. ROWAN: I mean, to your face, Gabe, but no, the-- yeah, there's a sort of mean lesbian vibe meme kind of-- kind of thing going around. And maybe in my head, I'm like, "Maybe she just fits into that." I just think she's-- My-- my full, like, biggest complaint with that series is that it ended with Elizabeth just being like, "I guess I'll never go on the sea again. See you-- see you seven years, Will." GABE: God! ROWAN: Like, what? GABE: The thing is-- the thing that bothered me was I really wanted to like her character. I really want and I liked the concept of her character. I liked the actress. I felt like they copped out when they were writing her-- writing her story. It's like, we're going to make her a side character. And then we're going to make her a main character, and then they basically sidelined her again, and I'm like, "Pick one. Pick one and then make her, like, give her the story that she deserves. Instead of, like, pretending that she's-- They acted like she was a half-replacement for Jack when she's her own powerful individual character." ROWAN: Again, I must say to you, Gabe, have you considered the outfit she wears in the Singapore sequence? GABE: I didn't say she wasn't hot. She-- she can-- Look, if Will is on the sea, I will happily be her, like, land man. I don't-- Look, anything that she wants. I look like Davy Jones, Jack Sparrow, and Calypso had a triangle baby. Like, I'll hook her up. That's fine, but I'm just --. ROWAN: She'd be into that. GABE: Probably. I'm just-- I'm just mad they didn't give me the Elizabeth Swann that should have gotten the attention she deserved. It's like they wanted to give us a powerful femme character and they're like, "But... No, nevermind. Everybody, nevermind." ROWAN: Listen, when I finally make my video essay about how underappreciated Elizabeth Swann is, truly the mark of success will be moving the dial on your dislike of this character even slightly, that's going to be my aim for it. But I really enjoy the fact that both of us have parts the Caribbean as one of our queer awakening sort of movies. I love that that was the one that you started with. Not even planned, listeners at home, that was just the power of-- the power -- GABE: Friendship. ROWAN: -- of Disney, I guess. The power of Disney's IP. They knew what they were doing. I just at any time, assume that they're making another part of the Caribbean movie. I feel like the world is always in a state of having had one announced. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: The watching one, or, like, waiting for the next one to be announced. I feel like it's never gonna go. I thought that, like, Jungle Cruise was them trying to be like, I remember that. Remember that franchise we did about a ride? And I don't-- I don't quite know if it's got the-- got the chops. GABE: Yeah. You're probably right. ROWAN: Sweet, shall we, in that case, move from the high seas, I assume. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: Although I don't know, maybe every single movie that you're about to mention is pirate related. GABE: No, no, but that's fair. ROWAN: To your second choice. GABE: We're going to move from the sea of water to the sea of sand. ROWAN: Ooh. GABE: We're gonna talk a little bit about Aladdin. ROWAN: I already as soon as you said sand, I was like, "Well, there could only be one option here." GABE: Picking Aladdin or Jasmine is impossible. They are. Don't-- Don't at me. I don't care. Be- So, okay, they were both beautiful people. ROWAN: Inside and out. GABE: Yeah, like, oh, but they were both incredibly charming, and it was nice seeing a relationship that they had close relationships with so many different types of people. And the way that they expressed it or the way that they enjoyed it, it wasn't, like, tainted unless the people were distinctly evil and bad. Like, Jasmine's relationship with her dad was genuinely, like, for the-- for the most part healthy, until we look at, like, the weird underlying tones. But like, at face value, it was good. Seeing Aladdin, this man, get into a situation, come out with a whole bunch of possibility for wealth, glory, and all of that. And then, just take a route of, like, personal happiness. That actually is what, like, enticed me so much because, like, that portrayal of a man is not something that I felt, like, I got a lot of younger, and it made me admire his character so much more like, "Yes. Like, that's-- that's the kind of person that I want to see and I would want to be with." ROWAN: Amazing. I-- yeah, fully agree on that. I feel like I need to rewatch Aladdin. I think I don't know what shit since I was a lot younger, but I found the entire thing entirely charming as a child. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: Also, absolutely banging soundtrack obviously. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: Cannot be ignored. GABE: [12:16] scoundrel. ROWAN: How do you feel about the live action remake? Is that something you've dipped your toes into? GABE: I actually haven't seen it. I'm not sure if it'll give me the same, the same levels of excitement. Have you seen it? ROWAN: I have. It was very forgettable. I have a very good friend who would probably, like, lock me in the darkest deepest dungeon for saying this because she was very into the-- to Aladdin in every single way, shape, or form. But I was, like, very forgettable. Prince Ali the sequence that was that song was an absolute bop. GABE: Ooh yeah. ROWAN: But it wasn't necessary. They tried to add a little bit of, like, Jasmine as a feminist. And I was like, "I... I don't know if that needed to be added, but I guess they did that with they kind of keep trying to do that in the remakes." GABE: Yes. ROWAN: Here's a very important question for you. Have you seen King of Thieves? GABE: Yes. ROWAN: How do you feel about Aladdin's hot dad? GABE: Yes. ROWAN: Where does he rank on your Aladdin spectrum? GABE: Ooh. Okay, okay. So, above Aladdin. ROWAN: Okay. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: Okay. Also agreed. I'm like, is he my exception? GABE: Aladdin is pretty, but the dad is handsome. ROWAN: You are not wrong. Listen, I am a lesbian. I am only attracted to women. And yet, if the cartoon man, Aladdin's dad whose name I have forgotten, Cassim, I think. GABE: Yup. ROWAN: Was to step out of the television after I had had a heart attack that the fact that a cartoon man was standing before me. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: And that such things were possible. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: I would take them on a date so... GABE: That's valid. Honestly, it would probably be an amazing date, the man would show you things that you've never seen before. And we can interpret that in however we would like to, but, like, those, there are plenty of things that people love to grab onto on other people. And those gray strips on the side of his head are basically just guidance. ROWAN: Aladdin, Aladdin would take me on a date on a magic carpet. And yeah, I still believe that a date with Cassim would be an even more wondrous adventure. GABE: Absolutely. ROWAN: For many reasons. GABE: Absolutely. ROWAN: I just-- I love how it was like, "Here's my hot take, Rowan." And I was like, "Cool. I take your hot take and I raise you a hot dad." Ah, it's all coming together. GABE: Look, I am a Dream Daddy cosplayer. I-- If you-- if you look at, like, a third of the cosplays I've done there have been a lot of dads. Dream daddy is the bi dad, which obviously has shaped a lot of me. Dragon Prince has the -- ROWAN: Oh my god. GABE: -- yeah has the dad. And I guess something-- another-- another good example is, like, one thing to think about this but She-Ra, the dad from She-Ra, Bow's-- Bow has two dads. ROWAN: Yes. Oh my gosh. GABE: And I've cosplayed as one of the dads from She-Ra just because he's, like, the beautiful man with long dreads and everything. And then he's got his gorgeous husband that also looks like a Dream Daddy character. I've cosplayed as a straight appearing dad, I've cosplayed as a bi dad. And I've cosplayed as a gay dad now. ROWAN: You-- you-- you've got the, like, full bingo card of dads. GABE: Yes. Basically. It's, it's -- ROWAN: That's everything. GABE: That's exactly right. ROWAN: I'm interested to know, like, when-- when we're talking about these, with these always-- these pieces of media, were these always things that you were exploring, like, at the age when you first watched them? Was it something that was, like, pinging in the back of your mind whether or not you kind of realized what it meant? Or is this stuff where you were, like, actually, it was looking back on them and when I was older, that made me kind of realize what was going on there? GABE: I think it was more like looking back on it when I was older, because it-- I've never, like, for... for a while I didn't really care about having a word for it. And even-- even now, like, that's-- that's a great reason that, like, queer is a great overarching term. Because I don't-- I don't. It varies depending on the day. And I don't always know where the hell I fall in the spectrum. And I realized very quickly that, like, the reason I kept trying to find a term for it was because other people wanted a term from me for it. And after I realized that I was like, "Actually, who cares?" Because it's not up to them to determine this. It's just up to me, if these three men are attractive to me, and, like, the other 300 in this situation aren't, I don't have to define in one way or another or whatever way because there's-- sometimes there are people that it's like just the emotional attraction to them. Sometimes it's just the physical attraction. Sometimes it's so situational that I was like, when I was looking back at it, I was like, "Oh, you know what, like, I don't-- I don't know where it falls, but if it wasn't just this, and it wasn't just that, so let's put it in the umbrella." ROWAN: Yeah, absolutely. So, if you've been enjoying the podcast so far, or to be honest, even if you haven't, you should definitely check out some of the other shows that are part of the Multitude collective. The one that I'm going to talk about specifically today is Horse. So, quick confession. I, in my misspent youth, was in fact, not the femme lesbian that you see before you, but a very confused little middle school jock. And so, I have, in my real life, left the world of sports behind, but in my podcast life, continue to be intrigued. And so, for that very dark and shameful reason, I have been listening to the podcast Horse recently. So, it's essentially a podcast that talks about some of the most ridiculous stories, the drama, the highs and lows, the biggest and baddest of the world of basketball. Now, I should say, I never played basketball, and I have no intention to but you don't have to be a superfan to appreciate this podcast. You can be someone who has literally never cared about sports before, and the comedic stylings of your hosts Adam Mamawala and Mike Schubert will, I'm sure, appeal to you. This isn't about the scores of the latest games. It is about the unbelievable history and culture of basketball, whether it's a shot-by-shot breakdown of Get your head in the Game from High School Musical, absolutely iconic. Or a thorough discussion of the best and worst food at NBA arenas, the Horse boys have got you covered. New episodes released every other Monday, just search Horse in your podcast app, or check out horsehoops.com. Horse, because basketball is more than what happens on the court. Quick question, dear listener, do you use the internet? Because if the answer is yes, then today's sponsor is for you. Particularly, if you, like me, have an embarrassingly large amount of tabs open on your browser at any one time. I am talking of course about Tab for a Cause, a browser extension that lets you raise money for charity, while just doing your thing online. Basically, how it works is whenever you open a new tab, you will see two things, a beautiful photo and a small ad. And then, part of that ad money goes towards a charity of your choice. It really is as simple as that. Every time you open up a tab, you no longer have to feel guilty about the 103 other ones that are open in a different window behind the one that you're currently using. You can just say, "Hey, I'm doing it for charity, so it's fine." So, if that sounds up your street then you can join Team Queer Movie Podcast by signing up at tabforcause.org/queermovie. I would love to hear about mysterious characters/movies/things you have brought to the table: Number three. GABE: So, this is a weird one. ROWAN: This. I love it. Sandwiched right in the middle, just to get-- getting a bit weird by number-- number three GABE: James Cameron's Avatar. ROWAN: Okay, I can only assume considering, I don't know how many people know this out there. I don't know how many people at Disney World aficionados, like ourselves, but they have made an entire avatar land Pandora. GABE: I know, Rowan. ROWAN: In the animal kingdom. I can only assume because that movie made a lot of money and zero cultural impact other than, I guess, to people like you. So, I can only assume that you were solely responsible for that becoming a thing. GABE: [20:37]. ROWAN: Oh, my God. GABE: I have-- There is a PDF when that movie came out of the language that I spent, like, six months memorizing. A huge chunk of it. ROWAN: I love this so much. GABE: I have so many pictures taken at Pandora from Disney World. I was speaking the language to some of, like, the employee cast members. And they looked at me with so much concern and confusion in their eyes because none of them knew what the hell I was saying. ROWAN: They had no clue. GABE: And those-- those gigantic blue people that were, like, beautiful trees that I just wanted to climb. Like, I didn't-- I didn't care about gender or anything. I just wanted them to hold me. Like, just-- just to hold me, cradle me, kiss my forehead. Yes, please. Thank you. ROWAN: Amazing. GABE: I got in there. They were all beautiful. It-- the-- the markings, the tattoos, the, like, 10-foot, 11-foot. 12-foot tall. It's just-- I-- I never felt the analogy, "I want to climb someone like a tree," until that movie. And then I was like, "I get it." ROWAN: I feel like, okay, so when I've been at Disney World, I've not really been someone who is super into, like, meeting characters. I have some friends I've gone with who are really into it. And I'm, like, really happy being the person who takes pictures and hops them up and everything. But when I went to the, like, Princess bit, I met Tiana. GABE: Hmm. ROWAN: There was just something about this, like, beautiful woman talking to me about food because that's obviously really, like, you know, a good talking point for Tiana's character who owns a restaurant. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: Where she just be asking me, like, what my favorite, like, what food was, like, a popular where I was from and talking about her restaurant and stuff. And my heart was, like, a little bit of a flutter. I imagine that your-- you will reach your final form when you go to Pandora and they have worked out how to do the Na'vi as character as, like, walking around characters. I feel like at that point, you will, like, ascend. GABE: Yeah. Like, that-- that quiet, "yeah," is so strong. It-- like, it's-- it's so weird to think about it. But like, one of the things that made me realize was, like, it was-- it was that moment of, like, they're all beautiful. Like, they're all-- they're all gorgeous. I don't-- I don't care what they have. I don't care who they are. They're all beautiful, man, woman, non-binary. Like, whoever they are, wherever they identify, I was like, "They're all hot." And that was when I was like, "Yeah, okay, this makes sense. This checks out." ROWAN: I can't say I've ever been specifically attracted to those aliens, but I -- GABE: We can fix that. ROWAN: -- fully with maybe I-- maybe I haven't watched avatar. GABE: i have plenty of cosplaying friends ROWAN: Seen enough. Oh, no. Yeah, no, that's the danger. GABE: I'm gonna-- I'm gonna send you some links. ROWAN: I know you are. That's-- I have zero doubt that that's going to happen. I'm like, waiting. I'm like, maybe it's gonna ping right now. Maybe that's -- GABE: Oh, it absolutely-- It will. ROWAN: Oh. GABE: I'm finding it. ROWAN: Excellent. I love the how sometimes you have very what people consider normal. Not you personally, although obviously you personally but just you one in general, will have these kind of moments of like, "Oh my goodness," about, you know, these human beings, you know, acting. And then sometimes it's like, "Oh, I like this cartoon of a human.," and then something. Sometimes it's just like, "I like this concept. I like this vibe." GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: I feel like just this whole thing they've got going on is a real great. In that case, I mean, how are you feeling about the fact that they're apparently making, like, four new movies in this franchise? GABE: I'm ready. I'm ready. ROWAN: Have you-- Have you already, like, committed to a cosplay for it? Are you like-- GABE: 100%. I've had a Na'vi bodysuit since I was about 18. But now, I know how to do makeup so... ROWAN: It's gonna look even better. GABE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. ROWAN: I'm so ready for that. And you've got the bows as well. Like, it's all coming together. GABE: You're absolutely right. I'm trying-- I'm trying to be everybody's problem. ROWAN: So, I mean, you truly are everyone's problem. To be fair, you already. People, it's really funny because I knew you from D&D stuff. GABE: Yup. ROWAN: Like, that's how I first came across you. And it wasn't until you, congratulations, by the way, we're being the sort of storyteller, which I mentioned 20. GABE: Thank you. ROWAN: That I realized that, like, everyone was watching -- GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: -- this trailer, this announcement. And every single person has a different reference for, like, where they knew you from. And a lot of people just know you as, like, the thirst trap person. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: Like, the person who just does, like, thirst trap cosplays. GABE: Yeah, it's really funny to me. There's-- there's people who knew me, there's people who know me from Tumblr as the Fae dad or the Unicorn man. There's some people who know me from TikTok. Some people know me from Tiktok as, like, the hot vampire guy. Some people know me from my house, some people know me from my Dream Daddy cosplays. Yes, some people just know me as, like, the thirst trap dude from Twitter and Instagram. It's so many different places. That's not even counting, like, the game design stuff. So, it's-- it's-- I have gotten some messages about being some people's bi awakenings, like, over this past year. ROWAN: Amazing. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. GABE: I'm just like, "Good. Learn about yourself." ROWAN: I mean, I obviously take great pride in having stumbled across you for your intellect and -- GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: -- genuine, you know, brain but I, you know, we come for the brain, we stick around for the thirst trap. So, that's just how -- GABE: Come for the brains, stay for the butt. ROWAN: -- how it works. GABE: I send you some things on Twitter. I just want you to know that. ROWAN: There we go. Aren't you guys jealous listening to this. There's just-- it's just me essentially getting a load of messages that you can't see from Gabe this whole time. GABE: Good. ROWAN: I would love to hear about your fourth thing that you have bought for me. GABE: Hell yes. That is The Wild Wild West movie with Will Smith. ROWAN: Amazing. Amazing. We've really truly had a journey today. We were at the high seas, we are in the desert, we've gone to space. GABE: Yep. ROWAN: We're back in-- we're back I guess in the desert but a different desert. GABE: Basically. ROWAN: So, I have a confession to make. GABE: You've never seen it? ROWAN: I have not seen this movie. GABE: You will. ROWAN: It's been on my watch list for so long. GABE: I got you. ROWAN: Here's, okay, here's my – someone who's never watched it – impression of what I assume it's about because my, I'm going to tell you right now. And I cannot believe that this confession is coming out of me. My closest sort of brush with this movie was that in my extremely white high school at the age of 12, during a dance production, I was not sorted into this group because there were two groups of, like, the 12 and 13-year-olds, it was a different group. But they did a dance to the theme song of this movie. GABE: Yes! ROWAN: And it was the most, like, 12, 13-year-olds who can't really dance very well. Like, everything was very much on beat. There was nothing,  like, not beat, it was like the slow bit of the beat as well. Like, very steady, very, like, bad like, finger gun type dance moves. I really wish I had a recording of it because I would-- that would be the thing that I sent you in return. GABE: I'm incredibly happy about this. ROWAN: And that's truly as close as I've gotten to this movie and I'm not gonna lie to you, Gabe, that was not in fact part of my gay awakening in any way shape, or form, even at the time. GABE: Sure. ROWAN: So, I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to maybe discover-- discover this later on. In a way that isn't just a load of bad dancing. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: Is it like-- the impression I get of it is that it is Wild West but there is some kind of like steampunk-y vibe to it. There's, like, some-- something in it that's a little bit -- GABE: Absolutely. ROWAN: -- fun and fun and funky. Please tell me/the listeners at home. What is it? GABE: I, look, that movie starts with Will Smith shirtless in a water tower. I, god! ROWAN: Say no more, Gabe. GABE: Its-- it. ROWAN: Please say more. GABE: This-- this man in hot pants all over this hot damn movie, I have not seen a man like that in leather that much unless it was at a very specifically designated party. So, this movie was just making some dreams come true. Watching him spin a pistol, no-- no double entendre intended, it-- it was, like, maybe I do like the Wild West more than I thought. ROWAN: I was a pirate. I was a pirate kid, but now I-- am I a cowboy kid? GABE: You look. ROWAN: Damn. It's so confusing. GABE: Cowboys ride. ROWAN: Oh my gosh. I mean, was there anything to it? Other than the hot, hot bod of Will Smith? Was there-- was there anything else or? GABE: I mean, it was decent. ROWAN: I'm not gonna lie to you, Gabe. You really-- I was-- I was hoping you're gonna sell it to me. I don't know if Will Smith's hot can necessarily take me through into the story, but I do appreciate. GABE: Do you like Sofia Vergara? Do you like Sofia Vergara? ROWAN: Oh, see now-- now it's getting a little bit more interesting. GABE: So, I'm-- excuse me, not Sophia Vergara. It was Salma Hayek. ROWAN: Oh, you know what? Equally as an onboard. GABE: She is in it. She-- she wears a bodice. I think she keeps, like, a gun underneath, like, her left thigh or, like, in her right boob. ROWAN: I love-- I love weapons where there aren't meant to be weapons, you know, weapons where you're like, "Oh, that was a little surprise. Okay, this is not where I thought you were gonna be." GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: This is-- maybe not safe, but we'll take it. GABE: Yeah, no, she is-- she is in it. She is hot as hell and she makes it work. ROWAN: I love that. I will say-- it's, I mean, speaking of weapons that just don't really seem safe. I truly could spend the rest of my life contemplating that scene in Wonder Woman where she has a sword just down her back. Yeah, I fully in my head have, like, replayed that Wonder Woman scene where she takes a sword, like, out of her own spine. And I'm like, "No, in no point does this make logical sense, but the vibes are there. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: That's all I really care about. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: I'll take it. In terms of these, like, the order that you've put these in, was this the order of– of, like, age when this came up for you? Or was this just, do you have a sense of which one was first? Like, which one was kind of the-- or is it just a big soup pack? GABE: It was– it was definitely Wild Wild West was-- was first. Pirates of the Caribbean, then, like, more of like, when I watched Aladdin, I was like, not much older, but still old enough to, like, kind of have a better gauge of it. And then, Avatar was probably the most recent of, like, these movies. ROWAN: Mhmm. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: I find myself, and I know that Jazza as well, like, we're very similar ages, find ourselves really looking-- when we are looking back at this media that we connected with, or that we were interested in, it very much is like, none of this was explicitly gay. Like, we're not looking back at something and being like, "Oh, I saw this character come out as gay. And then I was like, Oh, that might be me." It was more like, "Hmm, something's going on here, and it wasn't until later that that stuff was kind of available to us. We knew about it. And like, I very specifically, remember, like, the only things that talked about being gay were things that were probably not appropriate for children to be watching. No, because there were things that were like Queer as Folk stuff like that. And I definitely feel like I watched those things kind of ironically, because I think a lot of people probably think that keeping-- keeping gay people out of media was, like, helping children. And I'm like, "Well, I fully was exposed to non-- non sort of child friendly gay media beforehand, because there was no alternative." And so, I'm kind of wondering, like, where on that kind of timeline, you are at? Like, did you ever feel like there was any, like, explicitly queer media when you were growing up? Was that something that you were able to seek out? Or that you're able to find? Or was it very much still, like, "No, I was waiting until I was an adult before that stuff started to sort of appear for me." GABE: I think I never-- actually I never really, like, sought it out. Because I had just-- I had just interpreted it to fit however I was feeling. And there-- because there is-- there's, like, a lack when people will-- if people don't explicitly say it. And there's-- there's a whole different experience when it's like, a real confirmation. But then I hit a point, I don't know when it was, when I was like, I had moments where I liked it when it wasn't fully clear, because then it could mean whatever I wanted it to mean to me. ROWAN: Yeah. Yeah. GABE: And we definitely need more of a representation where it's-- it's so blunt and distinct. Like, like, Shriek Week. Like, Shriek Week is queer as hell. It's very clear. Many of the characters are non-binary, all of the characters have varied sexualities that, like, I had notes on. And it just only mattered if it came up in game for, like, the people to romance. Some of the people have been seeking out gay, poly, general queer relationships. And it was-- it was so intentional, because it was so lacking in a lot of the games that I played. But I also-- I play a character on a show [33:30], and he's bi. And it's just never come up because no one's asked. So, I've been-- I've been trying to leave and trying to find more things that-- that I can interpret however I wanted to or however it, like, could it be meaningful to me. ROWAN: Yeah, I'm kind of interested to know from you, like, with queer stuff, I guess it's easier to interpret, whereas -- GABE: Yes. ROWAN: -- if we're talking about you being, like, a black queer person, -- GABE: Yup. ROWAN: -- it's harder to, like, interpret. And as you're talking about, like, very much, I guess, like Avatar style or non-human entities that you can decide to code as black. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: Like, it's more difficult to be like, "Oh, I'm just gonna read this white person as black." So, did you find that it was easier for you to kind of, like, seek out media where you felt represented as a black person, and then kind of see the queerness within that rather than I guess, vice versa? GABE: Absolutely. God, it's a weird thing to think about, but I've realized, like, even in a person representation, I am a very public facing black queer person. And it's why I try so hard to present myself in a way that also, like, is really, like, relatable. Like, I don't-- I don't want to create or facilitate parasocial relationships, but I do want people to be able to see me as a person of color, queer person who's just doing the thing and is also just a person. I don't-- I don't want them to see me as an unachievable representation for themselves, trying to find those notions in media, because I want-- I want notions in media where it's a big deal. And I also want notions in Media where it's just normal. I like when people are excited to see me as that representation. And I also like when people see me as a normal part of that representation, if that makes sense. ROWAN: Yeah. GABE: And that's-- that's part of why it's so hard. Like, I feel like it's so hard to find it in Media because we get moments where it's so rare to see that straight and distinct representation in a blunt way, that it's always something we have to be loud about. Because it's so minute and miniscule in its availability. And it's, yeah, it's hard. ROWAN: Yeah, kind of like a drop in the ocean that you kind of have to be like, "Hello, I'm here," I guess for the people who need to see it. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: It's so easy to miss if you don't know exactly where to look at the internet/creative endeavors, movies, books, it's like a big place out there in trying to find. I am really lucky that I, like, know a lot about queer media. Like, obviously, that's kind of something for me that I could, if someone asked me to, like, give them recommendations, like, I pretty much off the top of my head will be able to give them stuff. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: But when you're-- when I speak to people who are, like, queer themselves, and actually really want to know about queer media, a lot of them have, like, never heard of half of this stuff, because it is that question about, yeah, where would I go to-- to seek it out. And I think that when you-- you find one person on, like, Tumblr, or Instagram or TikTok or-- or Twitter to follow, you sort of end up down a rabbit hole of finding a ton of other people, but you kind of need to-- there needs to be a break in that algorithm to allow you to find those people. And sometimes, I mean, obviously, you're on-- you're on TikTok and-- and there have been a lot of discussions about the way that TikTok kind of pushes white creators to the front. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: Pushes, like, certain content creators to the front. And that's, you know, been something there have been protests about. And so, it's that, I guess I understand the idea of being blatant with it and being very open-- open with it if you're willing to be because it is something that it's difficult to-- to find sometimes. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: Even for people who are really excited to see it, because it reflects who they are. GABE: So-- so this-- so this actually kind of relates, like, the last thing that I was mentioning. ROWAN: Oh my God, look at us segueing in. GABE: Exactly. And a lot of one of it I like, in some ways, anime, because anime has definitely become better with more queer representation. And making it be, like, more clear and more forward facing even though a lot of things are still very reserved. But anime also can have more feminine or femme representations of men, which I definitely think helps lead into queer representation. But it's also a conflict, because one of the things that is so terrible with anime and manga, that a lot of the fan base, like, drives me up the wall is I really get upset with fetishization of, like, gay or like bi men in relationships and these things by fan bases, because it's never just a thing that happens. It's-- it's more that, like, no, these characters have to be gay because they're friends. I don't feel like I get to enjoy meaningful, gay or bi men relationships in a lot of media in general, because it ends up being, like, fetishized. Especially by some queer people in general, or not even necessarily queer people, like, just femme people are, like, Well, look-- look at these two men who have to love each other." And especially as people who are not men, I really get annoyed when I see Media or fans try to make that happen. Or it's like, it's-- it's like men cannot be together. Like, it's-- like, it's a calm, normal thing that we can enjoy or appreciate. ROWAN: You mean, like, being likd, to queer characters can't be friends, or like... GABE: Yes, yeah, like to -- ROWAN: Any characters can't be– just be friends. GABE: Two queer characters can't be friends. And it's especially if it's men. ROWAN: I think about this a lot that actually, you know, these like tests like the Bechdel test, stuff like that. And there's a lot of debate around like, whether they're useful or what they actually show, and all this kind of stuff. And I think, like, at the heart of it, it's about if you only have a very small amount of representation of a particular group, you can only show a certain amount of story of experiences. And as soon as you open that up to, like, multiple people with that identity, it leaves so much more space -- GABE: Yes. ROWAN: -- to have loads of different ones of these experiences, which is why I really, really have enjoyed media where it's like, "Hey, let's explore loads of different people with this identity." GABE: Exactly. ROWAN: Whether that is, like, on the queer side, you've obviously got things like cucumber banana tofu, which if you're not from the UK, I don't know if you-- if that's, like, made its way across the pond. GABE: No, it just sounded very funny and it made me go. ROWAN: Oh, yeah, it is. It's very much on purpose, so it was three different shows. So, cucumber and banana were, like, television shows. And then, tofu was, like, an online show. And it was from Russell T. Davies, who is like the absolute OG fucking goat of queer TV. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: So, he was the guy who, like, originally created Queer as Folk, and then went on, he's done Years and Years. He did It's a Sin, kind of basically, he was the first person to put queer characters on children's TV in the UK. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: Doctor Who. GABE: That's awesome. ROWAN: Like, he-- he created Jack Jack Harkness. Like, he's just-- he's just, like, an amazing person. GABE: I love that character so much. ROWAN: I adore Russell T. Davies, and like, he has done so much. And he's had a really awful time of it, he lost his partner and kind of had to be a carer for his partner for a while, and then tragically lost him. And so, he kind of came out of that, kind of using the experience and using the pain after having this kind of time to mourn, to-- to write it, to send, to create. It's to send and put it out there, and I feel like he's just got more and more stuff to do, but hit a lot of his stuff. It kind of ends up being, here's a whole group of people who are queer. GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: What are they going to do about it? I know that the film Pride, one of my favorite films of all time, which we just did a movie club episode about. And one of its biggest strengths is that it has this whole, like, range of queer voices that are outspoken, that are more conservative, that are newly out, that have been out for years, that are older, that are younger. Like, and that allows you to have these kinds of disagreements or, especially when you look at audiences from outside of that identity looking in, you don't ever have them looking in and being like, "Look, this gay character said this, or I guess, this black character, this disabled character. Like, they said this, or they think this or they do this and therefore kind of using it," because I don't want-- I never want, you know, marginalized creators to feel self-censored by what people -- GABE: Yes. ROWAN: -- outside of their identity might take from what they want to discuss, especially when we're talking about, like, intra community issues. So, things that are, like, actual issues within that community, that it's, like, "Hey, so like, obviously, negative stereotypes are bad. But sometimes people do fit those stereotypes and we maybe need to talk about it." GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: So, yeah, I really-- I-- I totally get what you mean around those kind of the idea of if you've got these characters, and they have to fit into a particular box, they have to, like, be romantically linked if they're gay, which I think also does, I don't know if you've experienced this, but I feel like it often kind of trickles out into real life, this kind of assumption of like -- GABE: Oh yeah. ROWAN: -- oh my God, I know a gay person, do you want to date them? GABE: Yup. ROWAN: My sister's actually a lesbian, you should get married. And you're like, "I don't know if that's--" GABE: No, that's-- that's not how that works. I don't know this person. It's-- that has happened to me in real life. I was-- I was hanging out with a friend of mine that's gay. And someone asked, like, "Have you guys ever kissed before?" I'm like, "No." ROWAN: Why would you say that? GABE: Why? We-- we've known each other for, like, three years. We're very good friends. We're not attracted to each other. ROWAN: What is this? I do think that my-- I was gonna say you could just say that to-- to every straight person in your life. Just every time you see them, they just comment, everyone, you go partially like, "You can make-- you kiss them. You kiss them. God, I just thought." GABE: No, but I wish. ROWAN: I just thought-- they would be Oh, they also. I mean, I feel like "Are the straight people. okay?" is my favorite internet meme, because, like, the whole conversation about, like, "Can men and women be friends?" I'm like, "What's wrong with you, people?" GABE: God, I-- Litter-- Okay. I literally was having a conversation with someone in a bar, and then the person left. It was-- it was-- and it was-- it was a woman. And the person left, and then my friends were like, "Gabe, why didn't you ask for her number?" I don't. I don't know her. ROWAN: We were just having a chat, you guys. GABE: Yeah, we were having a great conversation. She graduated Nursing School. Don't be weird about this. ROWAN: Oh my gosh. I would love to know your-- do we-- how-- what number are we on? Are we on number four, number five? I can't remember how many we still have left to go. GABE: Well, that was-- that was five because I -- ROWAN: That was five, loved it. GABE: -- like, anime in general, so that was -- ROWAN: Amazing. GABE: -- that was five. But we could-- we could do a quick bonus. ROWAN: Oh my god. Yes. Let's do a bonus . GABE: Acane. Like, arcane recently. ROWAN: Oh, okay. Okay. GABE: The Lesbian representation in Arcane, that's not subtle. It's not just for interpretation. It's clear, even confirmed by, like, designers on Twitter. It's clear and gorgeous. I love it. ROWAN: I love that. I love that we've got, like, a new entry, I guess. Something that's more-- that's more recent for you. I mean, do you-- I think that's really-- that is really interesting. You've talked at the beginning about this journey of, like, being openly queer, and specifically, I guess to an audience or online being more of a recent thing. Do you feel like you have settled enough into, like, your identity or who you are that it feels like a solid thing that when you are encountering new media, it's not necessarily showing you anything new about yourself, or do you think you're still, and I don't mean still, like, catch up Gabe because I don't think there's necessarily an end to that. A lot of people will, like, continue discovering new things about themselves. And it's not, like, a bad thing. But I'm kind of wondering where you are in that process, I guess. GABE: It's been a whole lot better, especially recently, because even with queer media, also, a lot of it is white queer media. So, there's like, a weird middle ground of, like, "Do I belong? Or do I not belong?" Because the-- the experience can be different, even if it's not substantially different, if it's still different. There's queer media of what you see is two white people that are gay or bi or two white lesbians. And it is excited, and cheered for, and celebrated, but queer media with two people of color, or a person of color with another queer person that is white and media is so much fewer and far between. And it's-- it's definitely that, like, like, She-Ra is a great example, because you have the two gay dads. But I would, like, anyone that's listening, I challenge you to try to think of how much queer media you can think of where there is two queer people of color that are represented in that queer media, and it's hard to find it. One of the queer movies that I loved recently, well, it had two queer characters, The Old Guard, that's it. Yeah, I loved that movie. And I loved-- I loved the-- the queer media representation, because it... it was just right, it was just good. It was just fun. It just felt right. There was that whole extra layer of, like, they've been together for years, and years, and years and years. And were still incredibly close. And so, as we see more of the diversity and representation in it, I do start to see more of myself in it. And it's slow, I see a lot more of it in, like, indie projects, or like games or things like that. Like, individual novels and such, will have way wider visual cast. Or even-- even, like, tabletop shows. Like, they'll-- they'll have a bunch of the queer relationships with people of all shapes and colors and sizes. And I'm a very fortunate person that, like, I am incredibly fit without really have to-- having to try to be, but I don't think we also get, like, very much great representation of fat queer relationships at all. And it's-- it's something that I think of not even just for myself, but like, I've plenty of fat queer friends, who also fully acknowledge and want people to, like, understand that being fat isn't a bad thing. But when you are fat, and queer, people look at you differently, are treated differently. And because of that, the media representation is so few and far in between, and that sucks. ROWAN: Yeah. GABE: I've had a better experience with media representation, in a sad way, because I've stopped looking to mainstream media to give me that. ROWAN: Absolutely. GABE: Because like I-- I don't have high expectations for what they will do to represent these things. Because oftentimes, the people who are in those positions to do it are not a representation of us, or you, or me. But the people who are, are putting these things out there. And then, we give them a chance to challenge and not necessarily compete, but maybe, like, almost meet those moments, and meet those representations and meet that excitement. ROWAN: Absolutely. I think that there's some really interesting, I guess, there's it's kind of that double-edged sword thing of when you have people who are being given the opportunities, you might end up having something that's more mainstream, but you most likely will have a lack of the people who are being represented in the actual creative team. GABE: Yes. ROWAN: And then you've got things that are really indie that maybe don't have a strong release that you can't really stream easily in different places. And those are the ones that have a really kind of unique voice to them, have a really authentic voice, but maybe don't have a strong budget. Like, didn't have, like, particularly good quality in a lot of-- in a lot of cases. Like, had a lot of heart to them, which is like very much the story of, like, -- GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: -- queer cinema in general. Just because I literally earlier on was like, "I love to give recommendations to people," if there is anyone who's watching who was like, "Hmm, I would like to see some, like, black queer movies that have, like, black queer people at the heart of the creation." If you have not already seen because I feel like Moonlight and Tangerine -- GABE: Oh yeah. ROWAN: -- are probably ones that people are like, "Oh, yes, those are the ones that I kind of know." Black British Excellence, that is Campbell Ex. Oh my gosh, watch that live. GABE: Oh, yeah. ROWAN: That's incredible. The Watermelon Woman obviously is an unbelievable movie. Like, I love that film so much. I was really lucky to see it as, like, a remastered version at the British Film Institute. They did, like, a -- GABE: Yes. ROWAN: -- screening of it. It was beautiful and brilliant. I've not seen Naz and Maalik but it's meant to be amazing. It was, I want to say 2015, 2016 and it was basically, like, this sort of acclaimed award winning film that I haven't annoyingly been able to see yet. If you're wanting to go, like, elsewhere, obviously, Rafiki is a Kenyan film that has stunning cinematography, really brilliant chemistry between the leads. There's a lot out there, but it is, as you said, like, difficult to-- to find stuff. And something that might be interesting for people who are looking for one of identities within or that crossover into the queer spectrum that don't get a lot of love. There is a Kenyan film about being intersex that was sort of a documentary that was filmed over three years called Sydney and Friends from a couple of years ago that also might be of interest to people. But go... go seek out this stuff. Don't rely on what pops up on, like, the Netflix, LGBT tab, which is not necessarily -- GABE: Yes. ROWAN: -- the most useful in terms of finding stuff because I think Gabe is absolutely right. Some of the best stuff is going to be things that are happening at, like, your local film festivals, or that have, like, limited releases or-- or kind of indie things on YouTube. So, definitely check those out and kind of be -- GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: -- be willing to go with, like, the authenticity and harbor project rather than just what has the flashiest sort of cameras and-- and lighting, and editing and stuff like that. GABE: Yeah, because, like, this stuff is out there. And it-- it's-- it's a pain in the ass that we have to seek it out. ROWAN: Mhmm. GABE: But when you-- when you find the one that really sticks with you, it makes it. Like, I-- I've talked about it more than once, but, like, I am the storyteller on Shriek Week on Dimension 20. Dimension. 20 is, like, the tabletop role playing side of College Humor. It is essentially-- if you're not familiar with tabletop stuff, it is essentially a narrative improv with rules and mechanics tied into it that are basically linked to, like, dice that we roll that helps us determine if something works, if something doesn't work. And I had a cast of four people playing characters. And my job was basically to facilitate the story, the different other characters they would meet, the way the narrative would go, get the different locations, and what was happening in those moments. And like, NPCs, so non-player characters, were the characters that I was coming up with. And it was kind of, like, a Scooby Doo as, like, monster kind of dating sim dating game thing. And all of the different characters had pronouns that they used. They all had sexual identities, they all had gender identities, they all had likes, dislikes, hobbies that I made for a list of 15 different characters, that somehow I managed to introduce all of them in the first episode. And one of the nicest things was, like, there was-- they were even, like, diverse in nationalities. There was the chupacabra character who was he/him, and he had a skateboard that had the Puerto Rican flag on it because the chupacabra is a Puerto Rican myth. And it was a way to represent so many different aspects of someone and an identity and then represent it. There was Yadd Wega, which was our character that was, like, referencing the Baba Yaga. And we had a Van Helsing character who was neutral-- a gender neutral person that was bi and would also use he/him, but like, preferred the they/them which was, like, kind of a self insert for me, as I was also kind of, like, exploring on aspects of my identity, like, my queer identity. And when I had people reaching out, like, excited or emotional, happy to see, like, there's, like, just gay characters in this show that I watch. And it's just a normal thing for everyone. I don't think any of the characters were just simply, like, the player cards, on the end of them were just simply straight. Everyone had a different gender identity. ROWAN: Like, with these kind of roleplay games, and obviously, Dungeons and Dragons is the one that a lot of people will be most familiar with, but there are so many of them out there. And a lot of them are, like, very specifically built for queer characters and queer players and people to explore that. And that -- GABE: Yeah. ROWAN: -- like, what we were talking about the-- the kind of lack of funding or the lack of access, that actually this is the kind of like very immediately accessible media where, obviously with Dimension 20, you have, like, an actual production going on with it, but -- GABE: Yes. ROWAN: -- you could just as easily, like, grab some friends, start streaming, and tell their story and, like, be the one who gets to tell the tale, the kind of theater of the imagination thing. You don't need all these sets and lights and fancy budget and cameras and editors and color grading and all this kind of stuff, like, you would for making like a TV show or a film. You can decide to tell your own story, you know, as it goes along. And there's some amazing people who are making this stuff that is, like, super diverse, that has all of these voices that you would just not see otherwise. I know that trans [54:49] is, like, doing stuff where it's like, "Hey, we're just going to be, like, trans people making these characters and we're all going to be interacting together and this is going to be us owning and telling our own story." And I think that that's really kind of exciting. I think unless there's anything else you wanted to chat about, I think we can do, like, a sort of-- we can do our concluding remarks. GABE: No, I, that sounds good. Thank you for having me. This was fun. And like kind of cathartic that I didn't even know I wanted. ROWAN: Oh my god, thank you so much for coming on. I was me and Jazza, we went through a load of ideas about different types of episodes we wanted to do with guests, and we knew we wanted to do hot takes, but we were like, "We want something else that people can come and feel really passionate about, but not necessarily have to, like, especially if we invited anyone from the film industry, wouldn't have to, like, burn any bridges." So, something that's positive, and I've really, I've so enjoyed, like, this being the first recording. I'm really glad that we've gotten to, like, chat, because we know each other from the online world, but we haven't really been able -- GABE: Yes. ROWAN: -- to obviously either see each other or kind of talk like this. So, it's been so, so fun to -- GABE: Oh my god. ROWAN: -- to hang out on the-- on the old podcast recording. GABE: Absolutely. ROWAN: This is how I talk to my friends now, everyone. I just invite them on to this podcast, and then I have to put it on my calendar -- GABE: That's smart. ROWAN: -- and it's work so I-- I get to put-- I get to put it in the schedule. GABE: What I'm going to do is I'm going to make a podcast and then make you come on it so we can just-- ROWAN: That's how it works. GABE: But-- but mine will be games that, like, shaped-- shaped you. ROWAN: Oh my god. Amazing. And then I'll have to be, like, snap, tiddlywinks, I'll pick some really good-- I'll pick some, like, really niche British games. Some were like British bulldog. I'll just -- GABE: Tiddlywinks made you gay? ROWAN: Yeah, Tiddlywinks made me gay. I mean, listen, listen, just the name. You'll not say Tiddlywinks made you straight, Gabe. GABE: That's okay. That's actually very fair. No. Okay, you got me there. ROWAN: Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me. GABE: This was a pleasure. ROWAN: Thank you so much for listening. 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